Vocational Voices: Season 9, Episode 1
Facing Australia's transition to electric vehicles
Rod Camm (00:04)
This is probably the biggest change in the automotive industry since the Model T Ford itself. This is massive. Everything's different. You know, every technician will need upskilling and it's really important. Gavin mentioned safety. It's really important that they get appropriate training in electrical theory as well as part of this program, and we're absolutely committed to that.
Steve Davis (00:23)
Hello and welcome to Vocational Voices, the official podcast of the National Centre for Vocational Education Research or NCVER for short. I'm Steve Davis, and today's episode explores the topic that's facing Australia at the moment, our transition to electric vehicles, or EVs. We have three vocational voices today, namely Simon Walker, Managing Director NCVER. Simon?
Simon Walker (00:51)
Hello, Steve.
Steve Davis (00:52)
Dr. Gavin Lind, CEO of the Mining and Automotive Skills Alliance. Hello, Gavin.
Dr Gavin Lind (00:56)
Hi, Steve.
Steve Davis (00:58)
And we have Rod Camm, Group CEO of the Motor Trades Association in Queensland. Coming to us from the electric vehicle capital of the world, I'm told.
Rod Camm (01:06)
Hello, Steve. Hello fellow panelists.
Steve Davis (01:09)
All right. Welcome to the podcast, all of you. The big question for us is, how can the vocational education and training, or VET sector, prepare to meet the evolving demands of the motor industry amidst the critical skill shortages that we all know about? This is the multi-billion dollar question. It's facing Australia as we travel towards our carbon emission targets.
As you'll hear in this episode, we'll need new strategies and collaborative efforts to make sure our workforce capabilities are up for the task and that our motor industry can thrive in this era of electric vehicles.
Simon, let's start with you to give this whole conversation a bit of context. Could you outline the current state of vet programs that are specifically designed for EV technology? And the uptake as we know it.
Simon Walker (02:03)
Sure. First thing to recognise is that it's new. So we don't have a lot of history in regards to the data and we do have a few lags in our data. So I'm going to talk about two, what we call products. One are a couple of skill sets. These are not full qualifications. These are the sorts of things that are bundles of units, that are added on to compile a skill set often in the case where you've got new technologies or specialisations. And there are two that have been kicking around for a while. There may be more. One is the hybrid electrical vehicle inspection and servicing skill set, and presumably that's been around for a bit longer because hybrid cars have been around a bit longer.
And our data showed that in 2018 there were 10 enrollments in hybrid electric vehicle skill sets. But that has started to increase quite rapidly. And in 2022, which is the last year of our data, 310 enrollments. So it has certainly increased quite a bit.
Steve Davis (03:02)
That's heartening, because I'm on my second hybrid vehicle, contemplating my third. So that gives me great courage.
Simon Walker (03:09)
Well, maybe you need to switch into a fully electric vehicle.
Steve Davis (03:13)
Or it depends on this conversation!
Simon Walker (03:15)
So the other skillset, which is more around specifics for EV only, so not a hybrid, is the battery electric vehicle inspection and servicing skillset. And the data is a bit more recent.
There was no enrolments back in 2018 or 19, I suspect, because the product wasn't available. So in the first year that we had recorded delivery, there was 16 enrolments in 2020, and that rose to 287 in 2022. Now I'm going to rely on my industry experts on the panel here today, but it is not unusual in a lot of industries where skill sets are often enrolled in by people who are already trade qualified.
Now, in this case, they're probably trade qualified in internal combustion engines. And then as of course EVs have risen in terms of demand and the vehicles on the road, they would then add skills on through these skill sets. And you would expect that to rise even further.
The other pathway of course is the traditional qualification, which is a trade qualification, the mechanic trade. I'm only aware of one product out there, which is a certificate three in automotive electrical vehicle technology. And the most, the only data I have, which is our apprenticeship data, and that is a bit more recent than the other data. We saw five commencements in that qualification in June last year.
Steve Davis (04:41)
Five?
Simon Walker (04:42)
Five.
Steve Davis (04:43)
Gavin, I want to ask you before we turn our attention to Rod. From your perspective, what are you seeing as the most pressing skills gaps that we've got in the automotive sector as we shift towards more EVs on the Australian roads?
Dr Gavin Lind (04:57)
Thanks for those opening remarks. You know, I think, Simon, you've incredibly resourced some of those data points.
And the interesting thing about what you mentioned about the automotive electric vehicle technology one, Simon, is that that's purely electric vehicles. So someone who does that is not in fact allowed to work on the mechanical side of things that have to retrain as well. So perhaps there might be a marker in all of that.
But the important bits Steve, is the uptake of electric vehicles in Australia is about 1.7 percent of all vehicles. So it is growing, but that is not at the expense of the internal combustion engine. And I think the big leap between the two is a safety lens. So it's about that, when you talk about the skills that are required, I think it's more about considering what the safety topic is around that and making sure the right training is available at the right stage. So you can't have this conversation about the skills that are missing and also acknowledge that you'll need the trainers to be able to deliver. So these things might be on scope, but they might not have an uptake in the RTO landscape because they can't deliver them because they don't have the technical teachers to do so.
Steve Davis (06:11)
Well, that certainly fits the definition of pressing to me.
Dr Gavin Lind (06:14)
I agree completely. It's a multifaceted answer to a simple question you ask Steve.
Steve Davis (06:22)
Rod, I've got another question for you about what's happening, especially for you in Queensland, but do you want to have a couple of comments following on from Simon's opening and Gavin's response?
Rod Camm (06:34 )
Yes, certainly, and I agree with everything that they've said, but this world is changing fast, and one of the reasons you won't see many enrolments yet in the Electric Vehicle Apprenticeship is twofold. A, Gavin's right, there's no tradespeople with that qualification at the moment. We've got about 10 applications at the moment on our books for enrolment of apprentices, but the workplaces don't have sufficiently qualified tradespeople, so they have to go through that trades recognition process.
In terms of Simon's point around the data, there's been a rapid escalation across the country now in terms of those skill sets. So late 2023/2024 you'll see significant increases in numbers, certainly industry-based providers like ours and my colleagues across the country.
TAFEs are all reporting pretty high enrolments in that qual because what you'll see is it'll be the experienced technicians across the country in various occupations that'll have to upskill to meet this demand. Now at the moment EVs are so new. They're really only appearing in dealerships. Now, if we had a licensed trade like electrical you would see a bigger enrolment, but largely outside of New South Wales, it's not licensed.
So what that means is people within dealerships are getting manufacturing specific training, and then they're starting to apply their trade on electric vehicles. But more and more, you'll see that broaden out into the skill sets that Simon mentioned.
Steve Davis (08:02)
From the perspective of MTA, Queensland, how are you addressing these challenges associated with training for both EVs and also the traditional internal combustion engines?
Rod Camm (08:14)
Yeah, and I should say, Steve, you mentioned your next car. I can tell you, I looked at the Toyota Prado Hybrid yesterday and that's got to be the vehicle for you. It's a pretty exciting car. Not in Australia yet. So I'll talk about this from a national perspective rather than just MTA Queensland.
Certainly MTA Queensland has an industry organisation. We've got an RTO that sits off to the side as well. But this is a national opportunity. The technology is changing really, really fast in this industry. It's pretty exciting times actually. This is probably the biggest change in the automotive industry Since the Model T Ford itself.
This is massive. Everything's different. So, you know, every technician will need upskilling and it's really important. Gavin mentioned safety. It's really important that they get appropriate training in electrical theory as well as part of this program. And we're absolutely committed to that. So nationally we're working on, I guess it's identification of what are the tiers of skills that the industry needs. It's everything from just a basic single competency around how to depower an electric vehicle safely and to recommission it. That's fine for a range of trades, but then you'll get into the technicians and the prerequisite is that they have to be qualified.
They'll be the ones that are starting to try and diagnose problems and perhaps even fix them, and then you've got your full apprenticeship. So we've sort of got that regime identified from an industry sense, and a lot of it's based on the qualifications that are there, or sorry, the skill sets that are there. But the big challenge is engaging with industry and encouraging them to get ahead of the curve. Because the majority of people in our industry are small and medium employers. So that means they're heads down, they're working really hard, the last thing they can think about is going offline for four or five days to do training, because they think, oh, EVs aren't real. They're not coming to us yet, but they will. And the data, you know, I think last month, around 20 percent of all vehicles sold in Australia were either electric or hybrid electric.
So they're out there. But my industry has been working on, since the pre osso, we've been working on it for 20 years, it's not a shock to them, but there's still some training that's required.
Steve Davis (10:29)
That's actually an interesting insight, because my two hybrids have both been from new. Which means, and I've traded them without five to six years of having them, so I've only been going back to the dealership.
My little mechanic I used to go to, I haven't seen him. The small end of town is missing out on some of this business, the dealerships are going, this is beautiful. This is a lay down misère, at the moment, until demand for their work outstrips their capacity, I suppose.
Rod Camm (00:10:54)
We did a research study across the leading economies of Europe around this transition to electric vehicles, and it showed what you're describing. Yes, early on, it's dealerships that manage the issue, but soon enough, they start going into those independent repairers. The challenge is, revenue from servicing electric vehicles is as much as 42 percent less than it is for a combustion engine. So you've got to service them, but that's more about customer service.
And the independent sector does have an important role to play, but they've got to get ahead of the curve and get trained rather than just sit and wait till it turns up on their garage floor.
Steve Davis (11:32)
And we talked about getting ahead of the curve. We've talked about the take up in the industry. Simon, back to you. Trends of people taking up apprenticeships in these fields. You've said that the data set's pretty small. Is there anything you can bring to the table?
Simon Walker (11:45)
Well, yeah, this is more about the traditional internal combustion engine apprenticeships. And we've got into the habit over the last few years of doing a pre COVID baseline, and then looking at it today.
During that COVID period, and we've discussed this often enough on this show there were all sorts of stimulus packages and strange behaviours and increased demand because of wage subsidies and the like. So just doing a last year comparison isn't really going to be that helpful.
So we looked at the traditional automotive electrical apprentice and the automotive mechanical apprenticeships and the amount of people in training back pre COVID in 2019 was about 1,900 in auto electrical, and it's now about three and a half thousand. So significant growth. And similarly with the mechanics there were about 22,000 pre COVID and now there's about 29,000.
There has been an increase of automotive trades people. My only caution is there was this elevated increase in demand for appentices because of those stimulus packages and that has already started to come off the top. So it is possible that this won't be sustained for a while and in fact we might have had a peak during this period and it might decline depending on new commencements.
So that's the traditional trades.
Steve Davis (13:06)
Gavin, I'm going to turn back to you because this is an interesting scenario over here. First of all, I want to know with the Mining and Automotive Skills Alliance, what are you doing to support the workforce transition to the automotive industry? And perhaps a question without notice is what do we do if the cars we're starting to buy are demanding less of these people? This is a cliff we're on the edge of.
Dr Gavin Lind (13:33)
Certainly are, Stephen. Those are interesting facts from both Simon and Rod, and they know well that the workforce transition piece, this wouldn't be the first time Australia's gone through this. We don't manufacture vehicles anymore, so it's been through it once, and it may go through, you know, not something as severe.
But as a Jobs and Skills Council, as we are for the mining automotive sector, that's one of 10 federally funded Jobs and Skills Councils. Our role is to work with industry to define what these changes and needs are. So, part of our role is through a workforce plan and those data points Rod mentioned, and specifically through his state and federal counterparts, the NTAA and others.
It's about understanding where the needs and changes are coming from, but it is exactly as Rod has said, you know, it's that experienced tradesperson is the one that probably needs the upskill, the reskill, but it's creating that pathway as the custodians, as we are, of training packages, skill sets, units of competence, to try and find that efficient way in which to do it and ensure uptake happens.
At the moment, you'd argue that this is on face value a thin market because of low uptake, as Rod and Simon have explained. But that doesn't mean it's not important. So it's interesting for us because it's state level issues. As we've heard in New South Wales, there's licensed occupations you know, there's a federal desire for greater uptake in this. But Steve, it's not just the automotive industry, it's other industries as well.
So the mining industry as well, big users of light vehicles, big users of heavy vehicles are also transitioning to electric vehicles to get their emissions reduction down. So these are natural areas where you already have skills shortages across all occupations, just about, in the automotive sector, and you're now in competition with other sectors or industries that are wanting to do the same thing.
It's our role as a job and skills council to bring these industries together to learn from one another, to tell us what the direction is. And one of the important groups we have is our Automotive Strategic Workforce Advisory Panel. So eminent people in the industry, technology, innovation, unions and the like to come together to help define what some of these things are.
So it's at the start of this journey as my esteemed colleagues say but one we're quite excited by because the opportunity is enormous.
Steve Davis (15:58)
Has there been anything that's shown a great sign of hope?
Dr Gavin Lind (16:00)
You know, it's really interesting. I've heard Rod and Simon use the term, I think it was a mechanic. And what's interesting is the, what's in a name. And one of our industry partners in the mining sector was struggling to recruit automotive mechanics or light vehicle mechanics and they changed the name to a light vehicle technician in the advert. And suddenly had an oversubscription of people being very interested in what this role might be.
I think there's a real education piece in defining what this is. I know we're going to get to a discussion about what young people might think of the industry. But certainly these things together, it's about super tradespeople, experienced tradespeople, those who want to upskill and those that might be going into other industries with the skills that the automotive industry really needs right now.
Steve Davis (16:48)
Well, picking up on that, Rod, have there been any successful initiatives thus far that have actually increased apprenticeship uptake, whether that's a mechanic or technician uptake in the automotive sector?
Rod Camm (17:01)
Yeah, and Gavin's right, the nomenclature is very, very important. And certainly the industry much prefers the notion of technician, because these are highly skilled people we're talking about.
There has been successful initiatives and Simon mentioned peaks in data. That was certainly because of those incentives that were around and incentives work. There's absolutely no question that that does help employers with the cost, the early cost of an apprenticeship, but so does workload.
So through COVID, no one was traveling. Everyone's driving cars, lots and lots of work across the industry. People had no choice to put on apprentices. So we're working on the demand side that works, but the real challenge is supply, and that is about young people. They can't be what they can't see.
So lots and lots of young people now don't have parents in the back shed working on vehicles and things. So they don't know what a technician might do. They've got this vision of a mechanic, if you like, covered in grease. And you go to these leading automotive shops now, they are clean as anything, and its highly skilled. And young people, all they want to do now is be the technicians.
When we go to schools, we're working with some 400 schools across Queensland alone. They want to be EV technicians. They’ve got no idea what they are, so that's why we're investing and we've now invested in virtual technology so we can get these people to actually play as an electric vehicle technician.
We're having big massive trades expos across regional Australia to get employers, speed dating really, so that's all working. So it's really about engagement and being able to paint the picture.
Young people, I think, I've seen some really interesting studies come out where it's about giving the young person line of sight on the job.
Like, I want to be an apprentice, but where does that end up? If they've got line of sight, they're more likely to commit and they're more likely to see it through. So it's not rocket science. Apprentices have been around for a long, long time. It's just about rebranding them and making sure our engagement strategy helps keep them motivated.
Steve Davis (19:05)
Something that comes up in our conversations on this podcast is public perception about particular roles, and jobs, and careers, and pathways, and I feel like we're touching something now, as Gavin pointed out, that naming convention of technician versus mechanic. Do we need to lift the public perception of what it means to have an automotive career?
Because I feel like, in modern parlance, technician does carry more cachet than mechanic. But surely we still need people willing to roll their sleeves up and get a bit greasy in the pit and feel like it's a darn good day's work and they're contributing to society. This is an open question to any of you.
What is our challenge and what's possible?
Rod Camm (19:52)
I think you're absolutely right. We always have to lift the perception. It's not just the automotive industry. This is right across the economy, everyone's looking for really, really good people. And because of the analytics and data analytics that's involved in diagnosing electric vehicles, that's all computer work now, we need a completely different skill set.
But yes, there's still a car, so you still need mechanical skills. We just need to be able to paint that picture and it's exciting if we can get it right. If we don't get it right, our supply will be challenged, then we'll be relying more and more on skilled migration and it has to be a balance.
Steve Davis (20:27)
Just off the cuff, I'm thinking, well, we're not seeing the parents tinkering out the backyard, but if we saw more of the Grand Prix mechanics being disciplined, etc, there's some hero fodder, perhaps.
Rod Camm (20:41)
And that's the career path, by the way, that's the career path. We've got a young apprentice of the year from a couple of years ago, a female apprentice, fantastic young lady, won our Apprenticeship of the Year. Won the State Apprenticeship of the Year, and guess what? She's now working in a V8 supercar team, travelling the world. And they're the stories you have to tell. It's really, really cool.
Steve Davis (21:01)
That's a great story for her. It doesn't help me get my car serviced on the weekend, but it does give a hero.
Rod Camm (21:08)
We'll look after you, mate. We'll look after you.
Steve Davis (21:11)
Gavin.
Dr Gavin Lind (21:12)
Rod paints the picture so well, Steve, and I'll add something perhaps just from a different industry, because we look after mining and automotive, and we did a Gen Z Perceptions of Mining very recently, and we've released that study, in fact, today. I think this is true for economy wide, as Rod points out, that Gen Zs in mining, it's such a values-based generation, and they want to see an impact that they can have and they can make.
And it's exactly the same in mining, Rod, to your point. They don't want to be dirty. Less than 10 percent in mining want to take on the operator role, the miner role, the digger role, those kinds of things. Most want to be in the technology space. So the robotics that you see, the automation, these remote operations that you have.
So I'm pleased to announce that we are going to be doing a very similar study for automotive and that's a random sample just to understand these perceptions because as Rod says, you hear this from your parents. So often a young person can't see a role model in themselves. This is also an industry like mining that is a very low representation of women, and that's something we have to work on and showcase, these really good stories that Rod mentioned.
Yeah, of course. Grand Prix is a good way in let's capitalise on that story, because it's fun and exciting.
Simon Walker (22:27)
Yeah, I was just going to add to all of that, that we have done so much research, including some recent research, that returns to some recurring themes around what influences the choices of young people to go into careers, and that early age, that school age, the influence of parents and their ambitions for their students, for their kids, really is a huge driver of that.
And so until you can convince the influences of a career, it's going to be a struggle.
Steve Davis (22:56)
And I'll just make one other passing comment. We had to get a plumber out on the weekend because of blocked toilet drains. And in my past experiences, you get a burly bloke, a bit gruff because it's a Sunday. But this was a young man who loved what he was doing and brought a degree of self-pride and customer service to it. Very good at what he did.
And I feel like there's a cultural shift that is possible. He's emblematic of this. Within the, inverted commas, trades, that can actually have a positive impact. He should be holding his head, sitting down at the parents night with someone who's a high flying consultant, because he's also doing work that's worthy of great respect.
Rod Camm (23:40)
And customer service is everything. And if he's doing that, he's winning. He probably enjoyed charging his Sunday rates too, Steve.
Steve Davis (23:49)
And I enjoyed paying them.
Rod Camm (23:51)
Okay, well I'll remember that.
Steve Davis (23:54)
Gavin, back to you though, because yes, okay, public perception, that's one thing. Industry partnerships are going to be crucial, aren't they, in developing the curriculum to help us with EV-related training.
How would you define that role? And what is happening to make that a reality?
Dr Gavin Lind (24:12)
Well, only industry can assist in defining the curriculum because they are the employer and they know what they want. Rod pointed out in the beginning that it's the OEMs at the moment, that you have an apprentice or you have someone coming up and doing OEM specific training.
Now, that isn't going to be, or they don't like it to be transferable.
Simon Walker (24:31)
If I could just interrupt for the naive audience, OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturing Training, so the vendors themselves are doing the training. It's an expression that’s easy to slip off the tongue.
Dr Gavin Lind (24:43)
Thanks, Simon. Yeah, it was far too easy for that to roll off.
But in saying that the RTOs and the deliverers of training aren't that interested in the intellectual property. They want to bring this as quickly to, they want to understand it better so they can train better. And I think that's a key for this is how do we convince the original equipment manufacturers, the OEMs, to bring that curriculum to the table and work on something that is transferable for all.
But again, it's on scale, I think is where this probably comes from. So again, I'd say that we don't have this in many places, the two skill sets and the one qualification for that reason, that’s industry supported to begin with. And now it just needs scale.
Steve Davis (25:27)
If I hear you correctly, the car manufacturers who are the holders of this OEM information for their vehicles are different from the RTOs who get paid to help with making that training.
That's where the friction is. Is there much stomach from the manufacturer's side to make, do you see the day coming when they are happy to share and all play together. Because I noticed my latest iPhone finally has a USB C port instead of the proprietary Apple one, for crying out loud. Is there a sense of change there?
Because I know the RTOs are on board, but no good if the manufacturers aren't.
Dr Gavin Lind (26:09)
Let's hope so, because I think that's the only way this gets the uptake that it in fact needs. And you already see this in the mining sector, where those equipment manufacturers are doing things more collectively for the same reasons that the commercial vehicles will eventually go.
Steve Davis (26:26)
Rod, I know you don't mind getting involved in policy discussion, so let's look at policy now. What changes would you recommend to better support the training needs of the future EV workforce?
Rod Camm (26:41)
If I just start where Gavin was, I do find it very intriguing, Gavin's talking and using the term curriculum. So that's an intriguing shift, and I quite like it, can I say. I applaud that.
But anyone who knows me, I've been in this sector a long time and knows that I've been a major critic of how long it takes us to change our product, namely national training packages. That's not a criticism of Gavin. He's part of the new world that's trying to change the model. So I applaud that also.
Yeah, we do need to simplify this. We do need to be able to make changes quicker, and we do need to be able to make sure we can quality assure the capacity of RTOs to deliver industry relevant training. So that would be policy change one. The other one thing we've always struggled with in the VET sector because of this notion of competency based.
If you look at those skill sets, they're really, really important. If they're done well, our technicians and apprentices will be safe. They'll know how to work safely on electric vehicles. If they're done poorly we'll put people at risk. Now, there's no evidence anywhere in the world of someone being electrocuted by an electric vehicle, and let's hope that continues. But already, I'm seeing from an industry sense, that that skill set being delivered anywhere from four or five days like the industry-based providers, in TAFE to as little as three hours, right?
We need a model to stop that. So in Queensland, we've been working really hard on a regulatory model. Not often industry says, we think we need this to be regulated. There was a bizarre twist up here for a while when they reviewed the Electrical Safety Office and recommended that the future servicing of vehicles, electric vehicles, should be the purview of electricians.
That was certainly a shock to us all, but anyway, we've addressed that and we've worked really hard with both the Electrical Trades Union and the ESO, so we are absolutely on common ground and some of that's feeding into Gavin's work now. So, what we're working on is a national regulatory model. Now Simon particularly understands how hard it is to get things through the Federation.
So that'll take time. So we're working with the authorities that will probably need an industry based model for a while where we can quality assure the skills people are getting. So we can say industry recognises a green card if you like that that person's not only done the appropriate skill set that's recognised it's done it at a reputable RTO that will be agnostic to the RTO as long as they deliver appropriately.
And then you've got about the workplace. Does industry need to be saying, recognising or accrediting workplaces that have invested in infrastructure, invested in the appropriate safety equipment and invested in the appropriate skills and we can say they're EV ready. So there's just some industry based policy changes as well as the importance of, to use Gavin's term, curriculum reform.
Steve Davis (29:18)
Do you sense there's appetite this time to make this happen? Or do we need some of these EVs to turn into external combustion engines, which can happen from time to time, to scare us into action?
Rod Camm (29:34)
So that's already happening, the fires. Lithium batteries can be a dangerous thing if handled badly. No, I don't want any tragedy to drive reform here. I think common sense and evidence based can do that.
I think industry's on side, industry's the one saying, no, no, let's regulate this. Let's not have backyarders poorly skilled in the back blocks of suburbs trying to pull these very, very powerful batteries out of cars. So let's do this properly.
Government's on side. We're working with the Electrical Safety Commissioners and they're absolutely on side. We're working with the Electrical Trades Union. So to quote a union term, we've got a unity ticket here we've just got to get it done.
Steve Davis (30:10)
Gavin, you nodded when Rod mentioned government. How critical is the government's role in making this a reality?
Dr Gavin Lind (30:18)
Well, it is very important because I think it's, as Rod's indicated, a broad policy change drives all things. So it has to be a cohesive, coordinated approach. I think government already funds things that are on scope. It's just uptake of, and at least so it's a matter of incentivising the apprentice in the right way, incentivising industry in the right way, and also to ensure lifelong learning.
And I think that's another key aspect here is, I've always been of the view that government should fund part qualifications. It should fund skill sets. It should fund units of competence. So why wouldn't you enable someone to transition from their technician role now to take on those other things without taking on another full qualification?
Steve Davis (31:00)
Gavin, if government poked its head up over the horizon and looked around the world, is there any international best practice that's already in play that we could learn from?
Dr Gavin Lind (31:10)
You know, everyone will always say that the German model is a really good one. It's often these countries that probably have manufacturing capability, that have servicing capability, that have componentry, and the allied sector that goes with it.
And I know, as you mentioned at the start of the podcast that Rod’s in the world's capital of electric vehicles, but I think it's that combination of things that make it work really well. There are many other jurisdictions that do things because they've got the need, there's scale so we'll look to those. But again, I'd be looking to my learned colleagues and industry to help define what might look like best practice for Australia.
Rod Camm (31:50)
And Steve, can I just explain to listeners that the EV capital of the world, whilst I'd like to argue, I'm not in Brisbane I'm actually in Beijing. So Beijing, there's electric vehicles everywhere, but I think Gavin makes a very, very important point. If you look around the world, if you look at the economies that are already, Norway, 60 percent electric vehicles, their skills models are exactly as we're talking about.
Upskill your technicians, get that program going, bring apprentices on as the vehicles start to take hold. And you use our skill sets or gap training, they probably use the language. So I think our strategy is okay. We've just got to make sure employers are doing it. And we've got to make sure we're attracting enough young people.
Steve Davis (32:29)
Final step. We’ve talked big picture. We've talked mid picture. We've talked about all sorts of things. We're in the driver's seat now. Mirror, signal. We're going to head off. What are the very next steps we need to do within VET sector, within government, within industry to make, to get traction? Who would like to lay out their roadmap for us?
Rod Camm (32:52)
I would’ve thought the Managing Director of NCVER would want to lead that one.
Simon Walker (32:55)
Yeah, nice parlay there, mate. I think, I'm not going to answer it directly, because I think what we do is we struggle sometimes. We look at the difficulties. This is a fledgling industry. This is a fledgling training sector.
This is a fledgling change in the way we drive our cars and all those sorts of things. It wouldn't matter what point in history, three or four years into the sort of a very slow, but now emerging and burgeoning demand for electric vehicles, you would expect the supply of skills to be behind the demand.
As it grows, it will necessarily grow, the skilled workforce will necessarily grow with it. There are some intractable problems around making sure you can attract people into the trades, and we talked a little bit about that. If you look at the data, the system has started with the development of skill sets. That's a good start. While you have the vast majority of vehicles being internal combustion engines, you need those people, you need those tradesmen, you want to upskill them so they can do a bit of both.
Over time, when we get to a critical mass, you will have people more attracted in to those trades, and there will be the traditional subsidies available from governments for RTOs and employers. I wouldn't be alarmist about it because I think this is early days.
Steve Davis (34:23)
Gavin, final comments from you before I finish with Rod?
Dr Gavin Lind (34:27)
Industry plays such an important and valuable role because they're the ones that employ apprentices. They're the ones that employ tradespeople. So we need to take our cue from them as well, but bring along all stakeholders.
You're correct, the uptake of skill sets, it's understanding what those blockages are, and more importantly is understanding the perceptions about what young people think this industry is, because I strongly suspect that they're the ones 10 20 years from now that are going to be our super tradies working on our electric vehicles and the iterations that go with those.
So it's an exciting time and I very much appreciate the opportunity to have been part of this today. Over to you, Rod.
Rod Camm (35:04)
Yeah, I think this is exciting, not alarming. This is a new world and we can embrace a completely new cohort of people coming into the industry. We can engage with employers around ensuring they're preparing for the future. Because again, evidence from overseas is if employers don't prepare, we can expect around 20 percent of small businesses to close.
We don't want that. And we've talked a lot about skill sets. Can I just say, it's highly unusual that these skill sets were developed before this started. This is a remarkable achievement by both government and industry. So that's a massive tick, it means we can get on with it. And you've got industry saying to government, we will partner with you in this journey.
So, I think it's very exciting.
Steve Davis (35:48)
That's really helpful. Thank you for that. Because often within VET, we can be a little dystopian in looking at the lay of the land. So that's helpful. Very quickly, Beijing, EV capital of the world. Is it quieter on the streets as a result of that?
Rod Camm (36:03)
A city of 30 million people is probably not quiet. Certainly road noise is down a lot. I went to the world's biggest motor show yesterday just to look at electric vehicles and it's just a stunning array of technology. And you know the Chinese, there's hundreds of models of cars that I've never even heard of. Obviously the big, Nissans and Toyotas are all there as well.
And there's companies coming to Australia this year that you know, they're expensive, but they're beautiful cars. The world's moving fast and really inside a car now is a dash with a iPad sitting on it. And apparently all of the reports are pollution’s down here. I haven't seen that, but I'm told it is.
I was in Norway recently as well, and let me tell you, it's dead quiet in the city, so it's pretty cool.
Steve Davis (36:54)
Wow. Alright, well look, I think we'll get together next time when green hydrogen becomes the new fuel source.
Rod Camm (37:00)
It's ten years away and always will be, Steve.
Steve Davis (37:02)
On that note, Simon Walker, Dr Gavin Lind, and Rod Cam, thank you all for joining Vocational Voices.
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